I am depressed ...

Comments and questions about AP Avenue.
tunglam
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:50 am

I am depressed ...

Postby tunglam » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:33 pm

I have played APA to 28 avenue, but I still get many many wrong answer
Is my training method getting something wrong?
when the C speak out, how should I listen to it?

I play from avenue 1 against, I found I can reconize the C individually, but there is another pitch before or after C, I can't reconize there exist C...

so what's worng i get into?anybody can help me :cry:

TS
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 4:58 am

Re: I am depressed ...

Postby TS » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:40 pm

Try to play the other games as well, Interval Loader and Chordhopper. They will develop your hearing in many ways, and will make APA easier.

Try to play at least one of the games every day (APA, IL or Chordhopper). Your ear will get better little by little, day by day, but it will take time, so don't be depressed if you don't get that far in the beginning.

tunglam
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:50 am

Re: I am depressed ...

Postby tunglam » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:02 pm

TS wrote:Try to play the other games as well, Interval Loader and Chordhopper. They will develop your hearing in many ways, and will make APA easier.

Try to play at least one of the games every day (APA, IL or Chordhopper). Your ear will get better little by little, day by day, but it will take time, so don't be depressed if you don't get that far in the beginning.


ok
i will try your method
But can you talk about how to listen a sound (how to feel it, when you listenning) so that you can recognize the pitch?Thanks you!

abminor
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 7:55 am

Postby abminor » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:59 am

I play from avenue 1 against, I found I can reconize the C individually, but there is another pitch before or after C, I can't reconize there exist C...


Maybe a tip is that you should try to avoid comparing C with its neighbour notes b and c#. I have found that when I do that I always end up shifting my perception by a semitone. Instead, when I just listen more passively waiting for the C "alarm" to ring I have more success.

Absolute pitch doesn't seem to be based on hearing a note, comparing it with a previous memory of that note (a melody trigger for instance), and then labelling it. It's more like a note activate something in your brain that makes you recognize it immediatly.

One last advice: to me at least, chroma perception seems to be the fastest "input" I get from sounds. When i played APA I put myself in some kind of self observation mode and it occured to me that chroma perception of C was the first thing that ringed to my ears, happenning before I interpret the musical meaning of the tones I heard. The more I try to think and judge if the tone sequence contains C the more I fail. Where I succeed the most is when the perception of C is instantaneous. Of course, there are always new tone clusters that I fail and that I have to listen again, but when I finaly recognize C in it, it suddenly realize that it was there from the first listening, but I missed because I wasn't aware enough of my own perception.

In some contradictory way, APA method of presenting you with new C "configurations" become irrelevant once it succeed to teach you chroma perception. It's not like you have to learn to hear C in different clusters of notes, it's more like it teach you to hear C no matter what the context is so that recognizing it in new contexts become a piece of cake.

Hope this can help.

abminor
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 7:55 am

Postby abminor » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:09 am

One last remark. Because As I told before, absolute perception of notes seems so instantaneous, it's sometimes hard to decide which note in a tone sequence was C even If you're sure you heard it. I think this is because absolute pitch sensation is somewhat detached (happening earlier) from musical interpretation we apply to a group of note so it's hard to locate in a sequence where each note has a relative function strongly linked to its time offset.

tunglam
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:50 am

Postby tunglam » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:12 am

abminor wrote:One last remark. Because As I told before, absolute perception of notes seems so instantaneous, it's sometimes hard to decide which note in a tone sequence was C even If you're sure you heard it. I think this is because absolute pitch sensation is somewhat detached (happening earlier) from musical interpretation we apply to a group of note so it's hard to locate in a sequence where each note has a relative function strongly linked to its time offset.


Thanks you your advice!

I will try it hard to don't memory a note

But I really want to know how can I get the chroma from the sound, can you give me some idea
[chroma perception seems to be the fastest "input" I get from sounds] It is mean the chroma will occur when the note occur, but it will disappear in a short time? So I should catch it, right?

abminor
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 7:55 am

Postby abminor » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:20 pm

But I really want to know how can I get the chroma from the sound, can you give me some idea
[chroma perception seems to be the fastest "input" I get from sounds] It is mean the chroma will occur when the note occur, but it will disappear in a short time? So I should catch it, right?


No I can't tell you how to get the chroma of a sound. A lot of other methods have tried to do that with some kind of directives like "try to listen to the mellowness to this tone" without real success.
Actually the whole point of APA is to teach you to hear chroma without having you trying to actively hear a quality that you can't hear already. You can't force yourself to hear chroma because you don't know yet what it is and trying to decribe it to you would be pointless, you have to experience it. All you can do (if you're motivated) is to continue progressing with APA or ABP whichever you use and this will occur automatically at your own pace (it may take some time). If you're already at avenue 28, you have probably experienced it anyway but not yet fully.

Also, don't expect to have real absolute pitch with this sofwtare either (not for now at least). While I think it is the more advanced that exists, it does not yet provide absolute pitch to people. The author himself admits that and is still conducting some researches to make it work. That being said, the majority of people using it have declared that it improved their musical capacity and enjoyement.

Myself, I don't expect to reach absolute pitch with it. Althought I had some success hearing C in real music few days after APA training but only played on my digital piano (which is my midi playback device for APA sessions). I use it mainly to improve my relative pitch because enabling chroma perception render recognizing scale degrees in various harmonic contexts more easy.

Space
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:54 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Postby Space » Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:12 am

'Chroma' is a pretty elusive concept. For me, it's a kind of 4D 'shape'. Each pitch has a different shape to it. That 'shape' creates the sensation of an imprint in the region of my vocal apparatus.

Even though it's earlier in Chris's research, I still think there is something to the notion that there may be a relationship between formants and pitch chroma.

Still, this isn't something you can force yourself to hear. You simply have to allow your aural space to be occupied by the pitch and see what you hear. You may notice timbral qualities, loudness/softness, highness/lowness, tonal function, etc. Over time, after hearing a pitch in many different contexts, another more subtle quality will begin to emerge that is independent from the others.

I'm not sure what settings you are using when you play the game, but I would definitely stick to one timbre to start. Piano is the most obvious choice and very familiar to most people. Always start by listening to the melody word (the snippet of the familiar Mozart tune). You want to coax your mind into maintaining a clear internal representation of that pitch while playing the game. So, after getting your first 'taste' of the pitch and hopefully logging an internal imprint of it into your short term memory, you can refer to that imprint while playing the game. Any time you lose it completely, just play the melody word again to reestablish it.

Over time (possibly a lot of time but it is QUITE worth it!) you will be able to maintain the C indefinitely throughout a session without referring to the melody word. In fact, I would recommend starting from the beginning every time you play the game until you can get to 120th ave without referring back to the melody word. That may sound daunting but it is very possible and I believe you can do it.

Until you get to this point the whole notion of pitch chroma is still going to be elusive and there won't be much anyone can say to help, unfortunately. It's something you will discover for yourself in your own way as you listen more and more.

I also agree that playing the other games will help a lot. Chordhopper and Interval Loader both begin in the key of C. This helps to develop your ability to focus on and strengthen your internal representation of pitch - your 'inner ear'.

You've gotta activate your internal aural sense. One thing you can do is try 'replaying' sounds that you hear in your mind immediately after hearing them. See how clearly and for how long you can replay a sound you hear in your mind before it disappears from your short term memory.

Hopefully some of this helps! And I hope I didn't just confuse you more. I'm good at that :op

Space

tunglam
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:50 am

Postby tunglam » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:04 am

abminor wrote:
But I really want to know how can I get the chroma from the sound, can you give me some idea
[chroma perception seems to be the fastest "input" I get from sounds] It is mean the chroma will occur when the note occur, but it will disappear in a short time? So I should catch it, right?


No I can't tell you how to get the chroma of a sound. A lot of other methods have tried to do that with some kind of directives like "try to listen to the mellowness to this tone" without real success.
Actually the whole point of APA is to teach you to hear chroma without having you trying to actively hear a quality that you can't hear already. You can't force yourself to hear chroma because you don't know yet what it is and trying to decribe it to you would be pointless, you have to experience it. All you can do (if you're motivated) is to continue progressing with APA or ABP whichever you use and this will occur automatically at your own pace (it may take some time). If you're already at avenue 28, you have probably experienced it anyway but not yet fully.

Also, don't expect to have real absolute pitch with this sofwtare either (not for now at least). While I think it is the more advanced that exists, it does not yet provide absolute pitch to people. The author himself admits that and is still conducting some researches to make it work. That being said, the majority of people using it have declared that it improved their musical capacity and enjoyement.

Myself, I don't expect to reach absolute pitch with it. Althought I had some success hearing C in real music few days after APA training but only played on my digital piano (which is my midi playback device for APA sessions). I use it mainly to improve my relative pitch because enabling chroma perception render recognizing scale degrees in various harmonic contexts more easy.


In fact, I am at avenue 28 because I repeat many many times of the egg and sonetime I playthe Melody to compare with the egg tone...so It is not my real ability to achieve to that level

I wil keep to try hard continually :D

tunglam
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:50 am

Postby tunglam » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:14 am

Space wrote:'Chroma' is a pretty elusive concept. For me, it's a kind of 4D 'shape'. Each pitch has a different shape to it. That 'shape' creates the sensation of an imprint in the region of my vocal apparatus.

Even though it's earlier in Chris's research, I still think there is something to the notion that there may be a relationship between formants and pitch chroma.

Still, this isn't something you can force yourself to hear. You simply have to allow your aural space to be occupied by the pitch and see what you hear. You may notice timbral qualities, loudness/softness, highness/lowness, tonal function, etc. Over time, after hearing a pitch in many different contexts, another more subtle quality will begin to emerge that is independent from the others.

I'm not sure what settings you are using when you play the game, but I would definitely stick to one timbre to start. Piano is the most obvious choice and very familiar to most people. Always start by listening to the melody word (the snippet of the familiar Mozart tune). You want to coax your mind into maintaining a clear internal representation of that pitch while playing the game. So, after getting your first 'taste' of the pitch and hopefully logging an internal imprint of it into your short term memory, you can refer to that imprint while playing the game. Any time you lose it completely, just play the melody word again to reestablish it.

Over time (possibly a lot of time but it is QUITE worth it!) you will be able to maintain the C indefinitely throughout a session without referring to the melody word. In fact, I would recommend starting from the beginning every time you play the game until you can get to 120th ave without referring back to the melody word. That may sound daunting but it is very possible and I believe you can do it.

Until you get to this point the whole notion of pitch chroma is still going to be elusive and there won't be much anyone can say to help, unfortunately. It's something you will discover for yourself in your own way as you listen more and more.

I also agree that playing the other games will help a lot. Chordhopper and Interval Loader both begin in the key of C. This helps to develop your ability to focus on and strengthen your internal representation of pitch - your 'inner ear'.

You've gotta activate your internal aural sense. One thing you can do is try 'replaying' sounds that you hear in your mind immediately after hearing them. See how clearly and for how long you can replay a sound you hear in your mind before it disappears from your short term memory.

Hopefully some of this helps! And I hope I didn't just confuse you more. I'm good at that :op

Space


My setting is using random instrument to play the sound.
I always listen the medoly then remenber it and then compare to the egg sound to determine there is C or not.
Now I can remenber the C sound without play the melody
If you play a single note, I can recognize C, but when I listen music, I can't recognize there has C, so I feel depress in here...

I will try to begin at avenue 1 everytime when I play APA, I hope it is usefully to me :D

Thanks you for your suggestion

Space
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:54 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Postby Space » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:29 pm

Sounds like you're doing pretty well. If you can hear the C consistently with the random timbres setting I would just stick with that then. No point in going backwards.

It can take a lot of time before you hear notes in actual music. It probably took me a year or so of doing different types eartraining everyday until I started hearing pitches while listening to music. Here's an idea that might encourage the process:

Pick a bunch of songs or pieces of music that you know are in the key of C (especially music that you really dig!). Each day, choose one song to listen to before you do APA. Don't worry about whether you can hear any Cs at this point. Just enjoy the song. Then play APA for 10-15 mins. Now listen to the song again. Don't strain yourself or anything but just listen to see if any notes stand out. If you do this twice a day or so it shouldn't be long before you notice Cs randomly popping out at you in the music you've picked out. Your best experiences will probably happen when you're not trying :p Unfortunately it's not so easy to try not to try, so just try and leave the rest to the cosmos :)

Lemme know how it goes!

Rob

tunglam
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:50 am

Postby tunglam » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:22 am

Space wrote:Sounds like you're doing pretty well. If you can hear the C consistently with the random timbres setting I would just stick with that then. No point in going backwards.

It can take a lot of time before you hear notes in actual music. It probably took me a year or so of doing different types eartraining everyday until I started hearing pitches while listening to music. Here's an idea that might encourage the process:

Pick a bunch of songs or pieces of music that you know are in the key of C (especially music that you really dig!). Each day, choose one song to listen to before you do APA. Don't worry about whether you can hear any Cs at this point. Just enjoy the song. Then play APA for 10-15 mins. Now listen to the song again. Don't strain yourself or anything but just listen to see if any notes stand out. If you do this twice a day or so it shouldn't be long before you notice Cs randomly popping out at you in the music you've picked out. Your best experiences will probably happen when you're not trying :p Unfortunately it's not so easy to try not to try, so just try and leave the rest to the cosmos :)

Lemme know how it goes!

Rob


That is a great suggestion, I will follow your suggestion to do and I hope I can give you a good result on this area!

Thanks you! :D

Kayd
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:04 pm

Postby Kayd » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:00 pm

It doesn't sound like you are doing badly at all. I'm at level 56 now, but it's not like I hear the C in every "egg" every time. I frequently have days where I can't hear as well as the day before, and I've had setbacks where I seemingly "lost" the ability for a few days. I've learned to judge progress not by levels, or even by whether I can hear the C in music (I would assume that takes months), but by whether I can tell changes are happening in what I can hear. Every day I notice I'm hearing the notes in the chords more distinctly, or maybe hearing better some quality the chords that have C in them all share. Since I notice improvements in one area or another, even when I have 'setbacks", I am happy that I'm making progress.

Keep in mind that the game is "designed" so you should be getting one or more eggs wrong 5 times in a level. If you weren't you'd just progress to the next level where you make more mistakes, until you can't make progress any more. In other words, by allowing for a certain number of wrong guesses the game forces you into territory where you can't always hear the C. I would assume this is by design, to challenge you with situations where your struggling to hear.

Another way to look at it is that it isn't just the right answers that provide the learning, but the wrong answers too, because the wrong answers teach you what is not a C. If I understand the research correctly, it isn't really even whether you get right or wrong answers that really matters, but the simple process of listening for the C lets your mind sort through all the characteristics it hears and figure out what characteristics it identifies with C.

I might suggest two things. First, see if you make progress faster with one instrument than mixing them. If you do it may get you to the end result faster if you stick primarily to one instrument till you are fairly far along. The second is that if you're really not hearing the C, drop back a few level until you are back in the levels where you can hear it, then work back up. You may get farther than if you keep hammering away at levels where you can barely hear the C.


Return to “Absolute Pitch Avenue”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest