Amount of Time to Go Through All 12 Tones

Comments and questions about AP Avenue.
zacxpacx
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:51 pm
Location: United States

Postby zacxpacx » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:52 pm

@pianoforte

I have not finished all the pitches. I've only made it to the second egg so far. There are people who have completed the game, though. I certainly wouldn't be the first.

And in case you haven't read Phase 17 research on Chris's website -- APA does not teach adults perfect pitch. Nothing does yet. No real-time note naming or key signature recognition. At least not at the perfect pitch level.

zacxpacx
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:51 pm
Location: United States

Postby zacxpacx » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:32 pm

Update on my APA progress:

Yesterday I unlocked the second egg, the blue egg. Originally, I had planned on completing all 12 eggs in 4 months just to prove that it was possible. Starting in January, however, I realized there would be no point since the next step in the training process hasn't been developed -- learning categorical perception. So instead, I have taken my time. Here are a couple of observations I've made.

- Repeating levels makes the following levels easier. For example, repeating levels 110-120 for a week will make 130-140 significantly easier to pass versus rushing through 110-140. So the results of training aren't confined the levels you train on.

- Training on one particular pitch helps with all the rest. I just unlocked the second egg yesterday, and today I blew though levels 1-40 in 25 min. Levels 1-40 on the first egg took several days to complete.

A thought point I've been having: It's an oxymoron to say you hear the chroma in one timbre and not another. If the two tones are of the same pitch, the chroma is the common denominator between the two. If you're not hearing what's the same between the two tones then you aren't fully differentiating the chroma. Hearing the chroma in one tone but not the other is not hearing the chroma.

EDIT: Completed 40-80 of the light blue egg today. I've certainly gotten better at whatever the APA skill is. If we could just pinpoint what the perfect pitch skill is...

zacxpacx
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:51 pm
Location: United States

Postby zacxpacx » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:05 pm

A question for Chris/Something for Chris to think about

I'm not familiar with the research that supports the development of categorical perception via normal distributions about centralized loci on a spectrum. For the sake of discussion, I'm going to assume that the loci learning process can lead to categorical perception of chroma. I will also assume that APA is able to fully isolate chroma and that a player who has completed 140-150 levels of an egg color is hearing the actual chroma.

One of the challenges, as I see it, is that we must create distributions of chroma. As is, APA helps an individual isolate one discrete point on the chroma spectrum -- one for each colored egg. So playing on the A-pitch (440 Hz) egg will allow someone to hear the 440 Hz chroma after weeks of practice and advancement, by observing and comparing 440 Hz within different surrounding sounds and timbre. To model the loci learning process, a player needs to observe chroma surrounding A-440 in a normal distribution. How do we get them to hear surrounding chroma without creating another 150 lvls just for 441 Hz, 439 Hz, 445 Hz, 435 Hz, etc. ?

Just playing an A at 445 Hz won't isolate the chroma of the tone. It seems perceptual differentiation would be needed to hear the 445 Hz chroma -- another 140-150 levels in APA. So how do we create a distribution of tones in which the listener is able to hear the chroma of each of the tones without tons of perceptual differentiation beforehand?

I may be missing something... But Chris, if you've thought about how to implement the loci learning process, I wonder if you could put my mind to rest.

zacxpacx
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:51 pm
Location: United States

Postby zacxpacx » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:34 pm

Thought for implementing loci: Randomize the pitch each avenue and keep that pitch as the target for the avenue. For example, playing Avenue 1 of the A pitch we use 440 Hz. Avenue 2 uses 441 Hz. Avenue 3 uses 440 Hz. Avenue 4 uses 438 Hz. The pitch is generated randomly at the beginning of each avenue based on a normal distribution about its prototypical center.

Having a slightly different pitch at the beginning of a new avenue may be a bit difficult to adjust to, so having the first egg in the first basket of eggs just be the single note pitch on a random instrument could help. Just thinking out loud... Won't know how anything really works until we try it.

My biggest concern, in a nutshell, right now is whether or not the ability to hear chroma in all tones is a separate ability from categorical perception of chroma. If we categorically perceive chroma but we don't hear chroma in sound (it remains integrated in the tone as it is for relative listeners), then we have a problem. If we can't hear the chroma in sound without perceptual differentiation, then creating a loci distribution of chroma percepts becomes very difficult -- though I offer a potential solution in this post, one avenue could be far less than sufficient to fully differentiate chroma. All the questions I have stem from the one concern above. Restated: How do we begin to hear the chroma in all sound as a child would? Is this ability separate from categorical perception of chroma or does it follow as a matter of fact?

I posed a question asking why adults aren't able to use WHaP or Eguchi along with APA to develop perfect pitch, since APA is supposed to give adults chroma perception, the difference between adult hearing and child hearing. It's all wrapped up in the issue of clearly hearing all chroma vs. categorically perceiving chroma.


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