Another Possible Approach

Thoughts and responses regarding the research at acousticlearning.com.
cjhealey
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Another Possible Approach

Postby cjhealey » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:22 pm

I'm wondering that if people were to listen frequently to recordings of music with different parts sung in fixed-do solfege if it would overtime create a link between the solfege syllable and the pitch.

Start with solo vocal music (or with piano accomp I suppose) and make recordings with a (trained and pitch-accurate) singer singing with fixed-do solfege.

The student learns and memorises the tune and solfege entirely from listening, without using any music or reference.

The it progresses to other instruments, like piano with a singer singing the melody in fixed do with the piano...

If daily listening and memorising is done, over time, could this create an association?

By introducing the solfege, it will immediately make you hear notes as being different - because they have a different syllable - and perhaps this would be enough to start the ball rolling?

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Chris

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:31 pm

Take the time to read all of Chris's research. You'll gain a better understanding of perfect pitch, and it will help you think about how to attack the problem of adult acquisition.

Categorical perception must be developed. What you suggest is a potential way to attempt perceptual differentiation, though I'm not sure it would even work at that.

aruffo
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Postby aruffo » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:24 am

What cjhealy is suggesting sounds like the proper Suzuki method of listen-and-learn.

Which reminds me, in turn, of the scientific test performed on Suzuki students. I forget when and who-- I don't feel like looking it up right now-- but the basic gist is simple.

Any random nonmusicians will be able to recall and sing well-known overplayed recordings (such as "Hotel California") at the correct absolute pitch, plus or minus a semitone, with a high degree of accuracy (Levitin 1994). So it would seem likely that Suzuki students, who actually learn, memorize, and play the same songs over and over and over again, would be even more accurate at producing their songs at the correct absolute pitch.

Nope.

cjhealey
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Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:35 am

Postby cjhealey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:50 am

I'm aware of the "popular song" and the within a semitone phenomenon - Actually, Levitin's 'research' on this is rather poorly done and misleading.

The actually perceptual errors are higher than one semitone because of the way the experiment rounded to the nearest octave etc.

Anywho, the main thinking here was actually based on the research paper you have posted on your site, Chris.... This one:

Dr Chiu Kay Lau's Music Edutherapy. Specifically, The Acquisition of Absolute Pitch Among Talented, Mainstreamed And Special Educational Needs Students. A massive e-book with loads of information regarding absolute pitch and how it may be taught.


In it, it says that the research suggests there is no relationship at all between Perfect Pitch development and age. etc (There are some weird things with the experiment and what is considered a "success" but anyway...)

The main reason for suggesting this was because if each note has a different name, and is consistently heard with a different name, one would expect to start to think of them as separate. A "doh" is not a "re" because one is doh and one is re.

The way I wrote my last post is a bit unclear. I was suggesting to use it in order to memorise pitches. The point of memorising is to develop a vocabulary of contexts.

This analogy may not be relevant... Analogies are fickle things:

Take the english word "run". Simply learning how the word *sounds* doesn't help you use it or understand it... And it is an incredibly complicated word for something with only one syllable:
http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/run[1]

How would you teach a non-english speaker the meaning of the sound "run" and is various derivatives?

I chose that word because its meaning is so fluid and the potential contexts are so diverse.

Well the same is true with any single pitch. 12 Major, 12 minor, Modes, Atonal etc. are the various contexts it could occur. In each one it would have a different "meaning".

cjhealey
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Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:35 am

Postby cjhealey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:51 am

zacxpacx wrote:Take the time to read all of Chris's research. You'll gain a better understanding of perfect pitch, and it will help you think about how to attack the problem of adult acquisition.

Categorical perception must be developed. What you suggest is a potential way to attempt perceptual differentiation, though I'm not sure it would even work at that.


Just so you know, I have. I've been following Chris' research for about 6 years now.

I just wish we could crack this nut somehow.

cjhealey
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Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:35 am

Postby cjhealey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:03 am

Btw... I read through one of the research papers that tested the Burge Perfect Pitch Course's effectiveness...

I was shocked by the results. Most people experienced only a 10-20% increase in accuracy with 6 months of application. Not a single person gained a 100% score on any of the tests. And even the control group gained a few (2-4%) percentage on the tests just doing standard ear training.

These were college level musicians that would spend hours each day practicing their instrument and being immersed in music, and yet comparatively small gains and nothing (that I saw) saying whether the gains lasted beyond the experiment.

Strangely, Burge flaunts "studies on his website as though they had provided conclusive proof of the effectiveness of the course.... In my view, it proves it was a complete failure. It failed to accomplish any results that weren't achieveable 100 years ago.

cjhealey
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Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:35 am

Postby cjhealey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:17 am

One last thing. I have a friend that "developed" AP from Fixed-Doh solfege.

However, he's the only person I've heard of doing so, so I suspect that he already had it, but had never applied naming to it.

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:48 pm

I used Burge's course for six months.

Suffice to say, I now loathe him and his falsely advertised s h i t course.

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:27 pm

cjhealey wrote:Just so you know, I have. I've been following Chris' research for about 6 years now.

I just wish we could crack this nut somehow.


So do I... :(

The best lead we have is that categorical perception must be developed, and that categorical perception may be developed by observing chroma centered around 12 loci. If that doesn't end up working, I honestly can't think of where we'd go from there. Though I think there's room left to perceptually differentiate between chroma and scale-degree feeling (to really get to true chroma perception), if categories can't be formed by loci, then I'd be at a loss.


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