leveleven

Comments and questions about Absolute Pitch Painter
aruffo
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leveleven

Postby aruffo » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:44 pm

After a number of games at Level 11 Large, here's what my identification scores look like, and the red-circled area is not a fluke:

Image

Moreover, the brey and brown are only as low as they are because I am still mistaking them for each other (they were the category split in half on this level). Generally, I'm delighted to hear anything red or lower, because I can confidently "know" and drop those eggs where they belong; anything rellow or higher, I think I know, but I still hesitate because I am not sure whether the quality I'm attending to is in fact the definitive one. The area that kills me is obviously among rellow and green. I confuse rellow and yellow because I judge them by same quality except that rellow is "bolder"; I confuse grellow and green because I perceive a "whiny" quality which is present in grellow's absolute quality but also present in green's scale-degree quality. But for the lower categories, I obviously don't have this problem.

The last few games I played, though, I noticed that I perform differently-- more accurately-- if I consciously ask myself "which one is this?" instead of "where does this one go?" Somehow, asking that question does force me to evaluate the sound differently.

aruffo
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Postby aruffo » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:43 pm

Large games with 12 categories are frightfully difficult because there are fewer examples of each category. I mentioned one detrimental effect, I believe, when describing Level 10-- because so many of the tones are more central to each category, and so few are nearer to the border, it's far too easy to begin judging each tone as though it were a center tone, and latch on to an immediately-obvious property, which in the case of border tones could end up being either of two category qualities.

Another effect I've noticed is that when I identify a tone as a particular category, and then hear another similar-but-different tone, my snap judgment is to believe that it is a different category, because in Large games there aren't that many tones that sound different yet belong to the same category.

The area between yellow and green continues to perplex me. When I hear a rellow sound (C#), I know it for what it is-- which makes it strange that, when I hear a yellow sound (D), I don't recognize it, but I think it's rellow, so rather than drag it to yellow or even just wait, I'll drop it on the wrong color. For each of grellow, green, or orange, I quite frequently mistake it for the category directly above it; I don't have any insight as to why, except that I seem still to be making height judgments in that area, so I seem not to be latching on to the correct qualities to make accurate judgments.

Even so, I am progressing through the game, thanks both to my solid grasp of the lower categories and my strategic handling of the upper ones. Two more Large games, and then the Jumboes, and then with level 12 the game starts expanding the range to other octaves, one pitch at a time.

abminor
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Postby abminor » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:08 pm

Hi chris, good to hear you have developed the expanding octaves already. This gets me motivated to start playing again. I haven't played in more than one month.

One thing I noticed is that APP seem to have a beneficial effect on my ear. When I'm playing guitar, I seem to find the notes I hear more easily when I play APP than when I don't so that's a reason to continue the game.

jac
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Postby jac » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:11 am

I think the same too, music seems a little clearer now. Especially in vocals for me, i am able to listen and sing closer to the original performance than before.

Also, Chris- will it help if the border tones (which are hardest to decide) were deleted for higher levels like after 8th egg comes in- it would be easier and clearer to play right?

If you tried the same APP with only the exact pitches? Would you be able to pick the right colours now? Like @level 13, only the 12 tones are played instead of all the 360 tones??

aruffo
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Postby aruffo » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:21 am

Oh, heavens, no. If I could I would increase the quantity of border tones included in the game, but that would create a false perception of the category's ideal membership (see March 22 and the "bimodal distribution model").

Right now the Large game with 12 categories is the hardest because, proportionally, it features so few border tones-- making it more difficult to group tones together. This therefore subtly encourages identification by "height" or "area" rather than sound-quality membership. That is, if there were many different members of each category (as there are, more so, in the Jumbo games) then it would be easier to make decisions by gathering together each category of eggs, thereby making mostly within-category comparisons-- but when there are mostly ideal members of each category, the majority of comparisons must be cross-category instead, which means that each individual category's sound is not being trained.

I'm not yet sure how this could be changed without skipping Large games in favor of a Jumbo and super-Jumbo game, but even I, dedicated as I am, balk at the idea of playing a game level with 1152 eggs in it. So for the moment I'm just plowing ahead and hoping that as the sound area is expanded, it will become less and less possible to use height area for judgments.

zacxpacx
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hmm

Postby zacxpacx » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:12 pm

I'm curious, has anyone who plays APP noticed any permanent effects of the game? (ie are the categories formed permanent or do they fade with time away from the game?)

aruffo
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Postby aruffo » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:12 pm

Speaking just for myself, it's too early to say... or, perhaps, there's not enough training to be able to say. I'm still on Level 11 (Jumbo) which means that I'm still listening to piano in one octave. So every time I come back to the game I find that I still remember the lower categories quite well (although I can still confuse the two browns and the two yellows), but the knowledge doesn't seem yet to extend beyond the game.

Which doesn't yet bother me. Once I reach new octaves and new timbres, if I still can't recognize these tones in the real world, then I'll be deeply dismayed.

EvilBlade
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Postby EvilBlade » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:23 am

For what concerns me, yes. I always want to be very careful before speaking, but I am firmly convinced that the game is working, at least to some extent.

At the moment, I'm still at level 6, so there are a total of 7 categories into play.

Right now, I can confidently recall C and E, that I feel that are my best categories. With a bit of adjusting, I always get right all the others too. I think that it's due to the fact that right now the categories I train with comprehend more notes (ie: Ab/A, C/C#, Eb/E).

With identification, I'm continuously getting better. I had many examples in the last few days, motorcycle's engines, the note of the drone sound of my friend's didgeridoo, and mostly powerchords or slow progressions of chords in music records (mostly rock music). The identification is spontaneous, without any effort, but I feel it is still pretty "bound" to the guitar, especially electric guitar. I'm a practicing musician and I play mostly hard rock/metal music, so I think that my experience is similar to a violin player, for example, that shows some traits of absolute pitch on his own instrument.

My singing improved too. I never sung a lot in my life, but now I find it very amusing. I can now sing almost-perfectly-tuned melodies. Unless I keep particular attention I'm not fully aware of the notes that I'm singing (and that's strange, but I suspect it is due to our relative pitch habit) but they sound damn good. :lol: It's like training active absolute pitch by knowing how the qualities relate to each other in a melody, instead of keeping the attention on the scale degrees or intervals. It's a sudden but different way of listening.

I am SURE that this game is working, the difference before to after is so clear to me, now I know the sound of the notes. Maybe we only need to continue practicing, and discover how they relate to each other, with different timbres.

aruffo
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Postby aruffo » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:54 am

That's good to hear, for sure--! And of course this underscores the fact that I'm not a practising musician, so naturally whatever I learn in the game is going to take much longer to transfer to anywhere else (it'd be like I were trying to learn the sounds of Swedish letters without actually speaking any Swedish).

jac
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Postby jac » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:47 pm

Evilblade's post was very encouraging. :)

For me it feels like the game screen display also has some effect on my perception. idk this could sound too childish, but i just can't stop imagining having a real piano of the exact same timbre and colored keys to practice the game on.- but a well tuned piano. And then graduate to the black and white keys and acoustic sound later on.

aruffo
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Postby aruffo » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:24 am

Only two more 4000+ games before I pack away this level and start expanding into other octaves. Looking forward to that.

I'm still able to make absolute judgments of all the lower tones (blue through red), although I can still confuse brown and grey-brown. I can get red-yellow pretty easily if I identify it as "too 'solid' to be red" and I can often, but not always with confidence, identify yellow if I recognize that it's "not red, but too 'weak' to be red-yellow." Blue-orange I identify as the highest tone; orange I sometimes recognize absolutely and other times as the "second highest".

By "absolute" identification I could, of course, still be relying on scale degrees, but that's what the octave expansion is for.

Oh, and I should again mention-- the business about "solid" and "weak" is, again, not something I'm consciously thinking. I'm not actually trying to figure out if a tone is "solid" or "weak". I listen for and recognize a difference which I can, after the fact, describe using these adjectives.

Stefan
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Postby Stefan » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:50 pm

Hey Chris, any updates on your progress?

aruffo
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Postby aruffo » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:35 am

I just yesterday finished the fifth 4000+ game. Now I need to do the level-up procedure.. and then we'll see if I've programmed the octave expansion correctly for level 12.

Axeman
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Postby Axeman » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:29 am

Wow! That's an achievement Chris. How many hours have you spent on the game do you think? I am one level off finishing level 5.

aruffo
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Postby aruffo » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:16 pm

You know, if I'd thought about it, I would've included some kind of time-counter just for curiosity's sake.

What I can see is that I started playing back in mid-March. So it's taken me six months to get this far.


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